Brian Jewell (00:05.966)
Well, hey there everybody. Welcome to Gather and Go, the podcast that helps you plan, promote, and lead better trips. I'm Brian Jewell. I am your host. I am feeling inspired today and so glad that you joined us. As always, our promise to you is that we're going to do everything we can to make this investment of your time worth your while.

Now today I'm going to do that through a featured conversation with travel education leader, Steven Ekstrom of Learn Tourism. Steven and one of his team members, is going to explain to us why continuing education is critical to growing a career in tourism. We're going to talk about what traditional education in the tourism industry is often lacking and how

Good education can help solve problems like overtourism. This is a really interesting and inspiring conversation. cannot wait to share it with you. Before we get there though, let's start with some travel news you may have missed.

The American Bus Association is suing New York City. The association, along with a group of interstate motor coach operators, has filed a federal lawsuit against New York City and its Department of Environmental Protection. The suit seeks to halt what it describes as, quote, an unfair discriminatory and costly enforcement regime related to motor coach idling.

That issue is an environmental regulation in the city that prohibits motor coaches from idling for more than three minutes at a time. Citations come with a penalty ranging from $350 to $2,000 per infraction. The ABA complaint says that the rule is unevenly enforced, claiming that more than 4,000 idling summonses have been issued to private motor coaches since 2020, while the regulation is largely unenforced on city-owned buses.

Brian Jewell (02:18.52)
due to administrative dismissals and enforcement loopholes. Now through the lawsuit, ABA and its co-plaintiffs are seeking an injunction to stop the city's enforcement practices, along with a declaration that the current regime is unconstitutional and preempted by federal law.

Well, before we move on, want to take a minute and share a little bit of news from us. Now, if you have any group travel clients who are a little bit more discerning, maybe they have more expensive tastes, they are high end groups. We have a resource that you are going to find really, really helpful in planning fantastic trips that they will love. We have an entire publication

and magazine brand dedicated just to high-end affinity group travel. It's called Select Traveler. It focuses on upscale destinations and experiences in the U.S. and around the world. Each issue of this magazine features destination articles, travel inspiration, practical tips, and insight from affinity travel planners just like you who have a wealth of knowledge to share to help make your

upcoming high-end group travel program a success. Now there are a couple of different ways you can engage with this content. Now you can certainly check it out online. All the content is there at selecttraveller.com or if you're the kind of person that likes print magazines, if you go to selecttraveller.com slash subscribe, we would love to hook you up with a print subscription to the magazine. You'll get that magazine quarterly.

in your mailbox. But if you're not into print, let me encourage you to check it out on the website and specifically on a great landing page we've put together for you called the Start Here page. That's at selecttraveller.com slash start. I'll put the links to that in the show notes for you. You go to that start page and it's gonna give you a great overview of some of the fantastic information we have for you. Destination advice, practical tips on how to build

Brian Jewell (04:35.946)
and grow your upscale travel program. There's some podcast episodes to check out there. There are some free downloads that will help you get a quick start and really grow what you're doing. It is a fantastic resource and it is absolutely free. That's right. It is at selecttraveler.com slash start. If you are in the high-end group travel business or think maybe you would like to expand into that segment of the business.

cannot encourage you highly enough to go check it out. Well, now it's just about time for us to get to our featured conversation with Stephen Ekstrom. Before we do, let me remind you that if you are the kind of person that likes to watch podcast interviews, you can find the video for this interview on our YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube and search Gathering Go. You'll find our channel there. I'm also going to...

embed that video in the show notes for this episode so you can always find it on our website as well. Now, whether you watch the video or listen here to the audio, I do hope you will come back after the interview is over because after that, we're gonna do a wrap up of some of the most important things that Stephen and Dee had to say. And then after that wrap up, I wanna take a minute and get back to this idea of how policies like the motor coach policy in New York, how policies

affect the travel industry and why bad policy making always seems to have the hardest impact on us. That's going to be the topic of today's hot minute. You won't want to miss that. We'll be right back with Stephen Ekstrom.

Brian Jewell (06:25.71)
All right, everybody, my guests today are a tourism veteran and a tourism newcomer who believe passionately in the power of education to uplift travel professionals. After many years in tourism sales, in 2015, Stephen Ekstrom co-founded Learn Tourism, a nonprofit academy that offers in-depth online educational opportunities to travel professionals around the world.

He's joined today by Dee Kansime, a Learn Tourism student who has now become operations manager for his team. Stephen and Dee, welcome to the podcast.

Stephen Ekstrom (07:01.172)
It is an absolute delight to be here.

Brian Jewell (07:04.268)
I'm so glad to have you both. There's a lot I want to talk about. I want to hear Dee's story of going from student to professional. But first, for those of you who can't see Stephen right now, he may have the most amazing podcast backdrop I've ever seen. Stephen, tell us where you are and how you get to work in places like this every day.

Stephen Ekstrom (07:25.358)
So about four and a half years ago, I sold my house and everything in it and decided I wanted to travel. What started out as a six month road trip in a fully decked out Sprinter van turned into now four and a half years later in a luxury motor coach currently parked in the Valley of Fire in Nevada. So behind me is the motor coach and these amazing red rock formations completely surrounding me. And it's just absolutely beautiful.

Brian Jewell (07:54.818)
Yeah, that's stunning. love it. Dee, you might win the prize for the guest who has joined us from furthest away from North America. Tell our audience where you are today.

Dee Kansiime (08:04.994)
Yes, sure. I am Orla from Africa, East Africa, Uganda, the beautiful Pearl of Africa. And I am delighted to be here. Thank you, Brian, for hosting us. I am a tourism nerd, I would say, just describing myself. know, tourism is one of those industries that touches so many lives and people don't realize. But we don't always stop to think about the role we each play in shaping experiences.

And so I am really looking forward to this conversation and sharing a bit more about the Wakundu plant trees. Yeah.

Brian Jewell (08:40.607)
Yeah, that's wonderful. I'm so glad you could join us Stephen give us the short version of how you Got involved in tourism and then how you went from, you a tourism professional to really a tourism educator

Stephen Ekstrom (08:53.664)
Sure. so almost 30 years ago, would have found me wearing hiking boots, slouch socks, khaki pants, a green khaki shirt with the sleeves rolled up and a name tag with a cartoon frog on it. I was a waiter at the rainforest cafe and they needed a sales manager. So I jumped at the opportunity to do anything but wait tables. And that was the start of my career in tourism.

Brian Jewell (09:07.75)
wow.

Stephen Ekstrom (09:19.278)
I remember the very first call when somebody asked me for an inclusive price and I had no idea what they were talking about. I parlayed that into working for museums, attractions, restaurants, theater in New York City, then did consulting work with destinations, identifying product and markets that could fill gap seasons. And I love to learn. Around the same time that we founded Learn Tourism was the same time that I realized most of the education in the industry sucked.

And there was an opportunity to make it better. So that for me was a big aha moment. You I love to learn and when one teaches to learn. it's been a fantastic experience for me.

Brian Jewell (09:49.891)
Yeah.

Brian Jewell (09:59.362)
Yeah, that's amazing. tell us your story, how you got involved in tourism and how you came to work with Stephen.

Dee Kansiime (10:06.956)
Wow. That is amazing question for me that I always get. And I actually tell people it's one of my stories that I would love to tell every day and repeat it. And I enjoy it because how I got into tourism, is magical because I never thought that I would learn into this profession of tourism, but I found myself there starting from way back when I was sponsored in the university because I had financial problems, but I got sponsored.

And I didn't think that tourism actually exists. So it's really magical how I got, when I, when I applied to the university, they, they gave me, tourism, which was my last option actually. And I learned to love a course and imagine it. And I just immersed in it and loved it. And how I got to, work with land tourism, it's also magical because it's all about connection, you know.

and I used actually LinkedIn most of my times and I encourage anybody out there listening to these podcasts that you should use LinkedIn. It's a great tool to connect. And I connected, with Lanturism through LinkedIn, where I got to apply for a job and I was interviewed like anybody else. I passed through the SEED where I, I, I qualified for the job and I'm right here. And after also taking a couple of courses that they do offer on their

on their website.

Brian Jewell (11:33.374)
Yeah, that's amazing. So, Stephen, you made a bold statement. You said a lot of education in the tourism industry sucks or has sucked at different points in time. I don't disagree with you, but I want to give you a chance to elaborate so that people understand your heart there and don't think you're just curmudgeonly.

Stephen Ekstrom (11:52.152)
So what I found, and I was joined by Sheena Works, instructional designer, organizational psychologist by trade at an industry trade show. We walked out of the workshop and looked at each other and say, are they all this bad? And the answer was too many of them were. What we discovered that most of the education the industry was missing were three different things. We call it the T as in sipping tea. Transformations.

you could sit through a workshop, but there was nothing that you could do with the information that you received. You were simply talked at. So you might have some knowledge, but there's no change in who you are, your behavior, or the work that you get to do because of it. The second piece that most were missing was engagement. You know, again, somebody talking at you or that webinar that plays in the background while you go mow your lawn or make yourself coffee or, know, whatever floats your boat.

people weren't actively participating in their own learning experiences. And a huge part of learning is self-discovery. The third thing that we realized was missing from education in the tourism space, especially, was accessibility. And accessibility to us means two different things. Number one, how do people learn? We know that there are at least seven different learning styles, up to 12 or 15, depending on what research you look at. But if we're presenting all of our information in the same way, we're missing the boat.

We're missing the audience. We're lacking in empathy for the people we're trying to teach and educate. The other form of accessibility that we talk about is when and where people need to learn. And we are an industry that is from the smallest destination to the largest organization, geographically diverse. People need access to education when they need it, where they are, and how they learn best.

So we decided to set about changing that by working on building transformations, working on building engagement and working on building accessibility to the industry. And we really tapped into something special. We have educators from around the world. We have programs happening around the world. We have about 75,000 participants in our education programs and learning opportunities in the last year, which puts us well above and beyond the next closest tourism program in any college or university.

Brian Jewell (14:11.458)
Yeah, that's amazing. Do you tell me about the impact that education makes, especially in places around the world that maybe don't have the resources that, you know, Europe and North America have? How is it empowering the tourism community around you to make a difference?

Dee Kansiime (14:31.758)
I think one thing that I would say that education is really making an impact is that it elevates how people see things. And I normally tell people that tourism is all about the people, the place, and I would say the culture. So when you bring into the education, when people feel attached, you know, it's not all about, it's not all about having people, you know,

feeling that they are not part of what you're doing, but when you have them feel part, that is through the education part of it. Because you may have a community that is not, maybe you're not making them feel attached to what you're doing. For example, I'll give an example of a destination. When you bring the community and feel them that they are part of what you're doing through the education, for example, what we do provide, we do provide our tourism training programs.

we make the community feel like it's part of everything that is going on in the community. So that amplifies everything, the tourism, the education, and also it empowers the local people, the community, the frontline staff, know, going back to everybody in the tourism sector. So, and right here, I would say in Africa, it's very lagging and people don't actually know it and they need to know about it. Hopefully this message reaches out to them. Yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (16:02.574)
And I'm going to echo what Dee said in that it really is about community development and community engagement. Whether you're talking about the community at large, one tenth of the world's economy relies on travel and tourism. That's a huge, huge asset. Or it's the small community. In Nepal, we're working on economic development projects and community development projects and helping them build infrastructure and helping them build product and helping them get it to market.

Central Africa, did the very same thing with brick and mortar schools. We've got people who are learning to be tourism ambassadors or better finance staff or better HR managers, you know, all because a lot of the skills that we gained in tourism are transferable skills. And in my own podcast, having interviewed almost 300 CEOs in the destination space, the one thing I realized is that the tourism career path is serpentine.

Brian Jewell (16:48.739)
Yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (16:59.758)
There is no clear direct start with this job, go to the next job, go to the next job, go to the next job. It is all based on skills. You know, learn how to deal with people, learn how to deal with managing people, learn how to deal with customers, learn how to deal with your finances and your, your, um, your responsibilities and legal responsibilities and whatnot. um, you know, I think everybody in some way, or form is touched by tourism.

Brian Jewell (17:25.995)
Yeah, that's so powerful. I love that. You know, there's this issue that I hear about more and more, especially in destinations that have a lot of tourism traffic where the tourism community can sometimes be at odds with the local community. You know, there's a pull and tug between how much tourism do we want? How much is it benefiting our economy? Is it benefiting people in ways that are not quite equitable or that are lopsided? I know you guys do a lot of focus on

helping tourism communities tell their story and engage more with the rest of their town, their neighborhood, their city. Talk to me about why that matters, how you do it, and what kind of results you're seeing from those efforts.

Stephen Ekstrom (18:10.328)
Well, it matters because what's good for the local is great for the traveler. Even if the reverse is not always true. when people understand that tourism can help communities thrive, they are more empowered to be a part of the tourism community. They're more willing to accept and to, be creative in solving those problems like over tourism or overcrowding or,

places that are just loved too much. So all of that boils down to education. You know, when the local resident understands and knows why tourism is important to them, why it's important to their community. And when the destination is aligned with stewardship principles, you know, everybody is empowered to make a better place to live. And a good place to live is a good place to visit. You know, you

Brian Jewell (18:42.542)
You know

Stephen Ekstrom (19:10.124)
You talk about how do we teach that? Well, there are simple things like teaching ambassador programs. We work with every destination to understand what they want their community to be able to do. One of the things may be able to speak to the benefits and the advantages of tourism. One of them might be to provide better service to the visitor. One might be to be a better storyteller. So instead of just saying, to the restaurant around the corner, I can tell you, go to Matt's restaurant. That's where I take my mom for special occasions. And I think you and your mom are going to love it. You know, one of those is a story. The other is a plain recommendation.

Right. So when we're teaching people how to use these skills, we're teaching them why it's important. It all sort of comes together to create better visitor experiences and better visitor experiences for communities that are interested in preserving the way that people are, their culture, preserving how their community looks, the place, and preserving the prosperity of their community. And those are the three principles of sustainability that apply to, you know, 3M,

and General Motors and to, you know, Tom's river tubing, you know, so it really all comes together in these basics, basic, basic principles.

Brian Jewell (20:22.476)
Yeah, that's powerful. Dee, in your area, you may not be facing, you know, what Rome and New York and Paris are facing in terms of massive crowds. What are the challenges that tourism leaders and tourism professionals are grappling with in the area where you live and how are you guys addressing that through education?

Dee Kansiime (20:48.154)
I think one of the challenges that most tourism leaders here are facing is one is lack of exposure, I would say. And how most of them, are really addressing these is through connections, getting to learn beyond. Now we have AI, it's really amplifying the tourism industry. It is something that I always tell people to cope up with because AI is not here to replace our jobs. It's not taking our jobs. And managers and CEOs are really looking to

employee people that are smart enough to use AI. So I always tell my fellow youths that you should be smart enough to work in the tourism industry right now. And this is something that is a challenge right here in Uganda and most of Africa. know, everybody is like AI is taking us. Now people are traveling actually online. So how are you going to tell someone about CP4s? They have already been there before.

So it's eliminating the work of, let me say that tour guides, that's what they're seeing. But in my own perspective, I think this is something that is great and people just need to polish up their shoes and rub the dust off and, you know, pick up to the generation that is here. So that's one of the best challenges. And the other one that I would say is, it is about education. Our education in Africa and East Africa at large, it's a big...

are backward, I would say. And when you go into the lecture room, they are going to teach you things that, let me say, you're going to pictures of doing out there after when you finish university. And it's not the case, know, everything changes. When I was at the university, I thought maybe I'm going to be a tour guide or something, but I changed my mind when I got exposure.

I was like, no, I don't think that is something that I would want. So I looked at myself at the bigger picture. So look at where I am and the operations manager. That's only gives me a smile and a five star. Yeah.

Brian Jewell (22:48.853)
Yeah, yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (22:49.73)
I think, you one of the things that Dee pointed out is how, you know, education changes your perspective. You know, and when as an organization, I am most proud of the culture that we've built. And that is a learning culture. It is a culture where each and every single person is encouraged to learn every day. You're required to learn every day. There are two metrics for your job. You know, one is the numbers, right? Are you, you crunching the numbers and whatever you're

Your specialty is. And the other is, you learning? And Maya Angelou may have said it best when she said, do the best you can until you know better. And when you know better, do better. And we are committed to being better today than we were yesterday and better tomorrow still. And I think when we empower communities with that same level of hope, that same level of access to knowledge, access to education, access to resource.

Brian Jewell (23:28.717)
Yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (23:48.598)
Everything comes together in gels and people can thrive.

Brian Jewell (23:52.334)
Yeah, I love that so much. I love the impact it makes on communities. I also know a lot of tourism professionals who, as you were saying, Steven, they don't have a clearly defined way forward. You know, if you're 29 or 33, you know, maybe 38 and you've been in tourism five or 10 or 15 years, it's not always clear how your path is going to go. You know, you may be feeling like you're ready for something new. You're ready to take on a bigger challenge, but

you know, if you're in a small company, know, so many hospitality and tourism companies are small. If you're in a small situation as family owned, there may not be advancement opportunity. You may need to do something different in order to break the wall into that next part of your career. So walk us through how somebody in that situation can leverage your educational resources to start to build the steps to their next career opportunity and hopefully something that is more challenging and gives them an opportunity for bigger impact.

Stephen Ekstrom (24:51.366)
Sure. So probably 20 years ago, I was looking for new work. And somebody recommended to me a resume guide. And that resume guide focused on highlighting individual skills, their personal assets, and the change that they were making. so much of what people think about when they think about looking for a job or building a resume is

This is what I did. This is where I work. This is the role. This is the job title. This is the, and frankly, no business wants to hire you because you had this role at another company. No business wants to hire you because you, you you, you had that title on your resume. They want to hire you because of what you bring to the table. What can you do? What have you proven that you're able to do? What skills do you bring to the table? So for people that are considering

a job change or breaking into the tourism market or any market, really focus on those soft skills. You know, can you communicate with people? Can you listen? Can you innovate? Can you improvise? Can you build something out of nothing? And can you contribute to a team? You know, these are transferable skills and this is what I found that those CEOs have in common. It's what I found.

most powerful in looking at the resumes of the people who are on our team and the people who aspire to be on our team is that ability to focus on the interchangeable skills, the transferable skills, not just the career. I have a dear friend who has spent way too long looking for a job. And my advice to him was to step outside of the

type of business, and the job title, and look at everything else that you bring to the table.

Stephen Ekstrom (26:52.846)
It makes a huge difference. Perspective.

Brian Jewell (26:55.212)
Yeah. So how do you teach those soft skills, those personality skills? You know, some people might think, well, either you're born with that or you're not. It's just in your personality. sounds like you think it's learnable.

Stephen Ekstrom (27:07.02)
Everything is learnable. Everything can be learned. And what you have to focus on is not just learning for the sake of learning and knowledge, but learning for the sake of being able to do differently, being able to change behavior. So, I mentioned storytelling. Storytelling is a huge, huge factor of providing valuable visitor experiences. How do you teach somebody to be a storyteller? Well, it starts with the basics, right? It starts with that restaurant recommendation. It starts with...

You know, being on a tour and sharing that you yourself played on that playground. You yourself went to school there. You yourself had an office in that building, whatever that factor is. you know, people connect to stories and in teaching soft skills, you have to have a few different things, you know, and we practice this in every course that we build. You have to have information presented different ways.

So yes, there might be some reading. Yes, there might be some video. There might be some audio. There might be some games. There might be some play. There might be some exercises. There might be some group discussion. There might be some peer-to-peer learning. And when you incorporate all of those things, all of those different elements, all of those different learning styles and learning and teaching technique, people end up building the skills that change their behavior.

Brian Jewell (28:23.436)
Yeah, that's powerful. Dee, can I put you on the spot and ask you one or two of the skills that you have learned that has been the most impactful in your career?

Dee Kansiime (28:33.068)
I think one of the most beneficial skills that I've really learned in my career is being a learner and putting learning part of me. It's part of me every day. You sometimes I raise to tell people like, you can have a lot of focus on storytelling in our industry, maybe customer experience, community engagement or.

maybe destination knowledge, but this goes beyond. It's about the mindset, I would say. How do you think, or like someone who represents a place, not just someone that works in it. So that puts me back to learning as one of the skill that I've gained, I would say. Someone can say it's not a skill, but not everybody wants to learn or not everybody's a nerd. So it's...

one of the best skills that I say that I've gained actually being part of land tourism. It's a skill that I've actually immersed in me that I have inherited and it's part of me. We have land cash-ons and every employee gets two, two days or three days in the whole, let me say time for you to go every year. You go and learn something new, you come back and you teach everybody what you learned.

So that is one of the skills that I have really gained. And the other one is the listening skill. When you listen, you learn. When you listen, you get to polish up yourself. You actually get your mistakes, but when you don't listen, you'll not learn actually. You can actually just learn from sitting down and listening. And when someone says, okay, are we good to go? You're like, I'm good to go without even asking any question, but just because you've learned and you've picked something.

So those are the two best skills that I've really picked up, being a nerd and also listening so much.

Stephen Ekstrom (30:31.99)
And I'm going to chime in on that. One of the phrases that we coined was education with empathy.

You know, understanding what the needs are of the learner. And when you realize that every conversation you have is a learning opportunity, you know, Brian, I'm learning about you. I'm learning about your podcast. learning about your audience. I'm learning more about D. I'm learning right now. And when you apply empathy to creating learning experiences for people, you're reaching them how they communicate. know, you are listening not just to hear what they're saying, but to understand what they mean.

You are speaking not to be heard, but to be understood. And, and, you know, I can't praise Dee enough for being one of our chief learners and to see his growth since joining the learn tourism team, embracing new technologies, embracing new tools, new skills, new opportunities, new places to go and visit.

organizations to join and networking to do and people to meet, you know, that is all part of that applying empathy to whatever it is that you do. And it's a skill that for me, it was a learned skill. know, somebody who knew me 20 years ago or 30 years ago, and we have somebody on our team who's known me for 28 years. my gosh, I feel old. But, know,

Brian Jewell (31:45.325)
Yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (32:03.178)
She'll tell you right away that the Steve that's the boss now is not the same Steve that it was 15 years ago. And it's because I learned empathy and anything can be learned if you want to.

Brian Jewell (32:15.084)
Yeah. Well, that's really amazing. I love that. So our audience, since you mentioned them, they are tourism nerds. You guys are in good company because if you're, if you're not a tourism nerd, what are you doing listening to a tourism podcast? But they're also, they tend to be small tour company owners. A lot of them are solopreneurs or they may have a team of one or two or three with them. Some of them are our travel advisors as well. What kind of resources do you have for them in

the kind of work that they're doing that could benefit them through the Learn Tourism program.

Stephen Ekstrom (32:50.51)
Sure. So there are over 150 classes available online and on demand for anybody anywhere in the world. They're translated into your language. They represent a variety of different learning styles and technique. Anybody can go online and sign up to take a class. Some are free. Some have a small fee, a modest fee. 100 % of the revenue that we bring in from course registration goes directly to our scholarship fund. So that is not a revenue center for us in the way that most might think.

Another opportunity is to follow us on LinkedIn. Follow us on social media. We offer free webinars every single month on a variety of topics led by skilled instructors, passionate professionals, and people who really do understand what it is that they do and the difference they can make. The third thing that I would say is learn by example.

Now be a learner.

What can you do? You can actively seek out new information, new insights, new tools, new technique. It doesn't have to be expensive. It can be sitting down and networking with a colleague who runs a tour business somewhere else in the country. It could be sitting down and having a conversation about what works and what doesn't with a trade association executive or with an editor or writer for a publication. There is an opportunity to learn everywhere you go and it doesn't have to cost money.

Brian Jewell (34:15.074)
Yeah, well, that's really powerful.

Stephen Ekstrom (34:17.934)
That's your favorite word. That's your favorite phrase, by the way. Powerful.

Brian Jewell (34:20.431)
Well, you know, not every conversation is this deep. Sometimes when I'm talking to people, it's much more mundane.

Stephen Ekstrom (34:27.949)
Well, if you'd like, could be vapid for a moment. I get botox.

Brian Jewell (34:36.664)
There's the pull quote. There's the title of this episode. It works. man. Wow. So what is the best way you mentioned LinkedIn? If people want to browse the course catalog, learn more about getting involved, where should they go to do that?

Stephen Ekstrom (34:52.084)
learntourism.org

Brian Jewell (34:55.694)
Yeah, fantastic. All right, before I let you go, we have some questions we ask every guest and they're just for fun. So there's no pressure. You can just answer off the top of your head. Dee, I'll start with you. When you travel, do you prefer to be seated by a window or seated on the aisle?

Dee Kansiime (35:11.768)
I think I prefer to sit on the windows so that I can really have the adventure most times because I'm going to a new place and I would want to see, of course, my eyes would want to have the adventure and feel it.

Brian Jewell (35:23.618)
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. What about you, Steven? Yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (35:26.478)
window because somebody else is going to have to pay before I do and I don't want to have to get up to make space for them.

Brian Jewell (35:33.452)
See, I'm to somebody else. My answer is the opposite. I drink too much Coke Zero before I get on the plane and then I pay the price for it. So you and I.

Stephen Ekstrom (35:41.911)
always someone always someone and I'm like, just let me take my nap.

Brian Jewell (35:45.912)
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. All right, Dee, what's something you pack with you in your carry-on that you wouldn't go on a trip without?

Dee Kansiime (35:54.666)
one thing I think it's my laptop. Yeah, because it really helps me. Sometimes you can be somewhere and you just want to browse something or check something, check out restaurants or, know, or a good place to stay. And my laptop will only help me. So I, I always have it and maybe a snack.

Brian Jewell (36:16.128)
Yes, snack. That's a good answer. That's a really good snack. If I had to choose between laptop and snack, there are some days where I would choose the snack.

Stephen Ekstrom (36:25.166)
Most days, many days. I have, I have, I'm known for a snack accident every once in a while.

Brian Jewell (36:27.66)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Jewell (36:33.038)
Eating something you really shouldn't.

Stephen Ekstrom (36:35.944)
Exactly. In my carry on, are two things you might be surprised to find. Usually I travel with my dogs. So I may have a dog treat or something related to the dogs. The other item that I always travel with is my passport. Now, you don't always need a passport to travel, but I do because you never know where this adventure is going to lead.

I can't tell you how many times I've been somewhere and gotten a phone call and had to go somewhere else from where I was. Luckily now I get to drive most places. So it's easy to carry dog treats and dogs and snacks and all the good things. But keep your passport with you. Be willing to embrace the adventure.

Brian Jewell (37:20.972)
Yeah, that is great advice. So Dee, if you had a free airline pass anywhere in the world and you had a week that Stephen let you off work and you could spend that week going anywhere you wanted, where would you go?

Dee Kansiime (37:35.438)
I think I would go to Florida. It's a place I would want to go. I've mentioned this to Steve because I always tell Steve if maybe I'm given a chance to teleport right now, I'll teleport to Florida just to meet Steve because he's a nice person to be with.

Stephen Ekstrom (37:54.734)
I'm not in Florida. I'm rarely in Florida. Even though I have a Florida license and I'm a Florida resident, I am all over North America. So you'd have to meet me in Nevada today.

Dee Kansiime (38:04.588)
Yeah, but most of strings are in Florida.

Stephen Ekstrom (38:07.802)
this is true. This is true. Yes.

Dee Kansiime (38:09.387)
Yeah.

Brian Jewell (38:10.946)
Yeah. Steve, this is less of a theoretical question for you because it's kind of the way you live, it, know, wave the magic wand. If you could be anywhere next week, where would it be?

Stephen Ekstrom (38:20.718)
On a beach in Mexico. On a beach in Mexico. You know, as a nomad, I've had the privilege to spend three winters traveling in Mexico. And I've woken up with 10, 15 miles of sandy beach to myself. Wow. You know, well, if you don't include the turtle sanctuary. So, you know, to have that flexibility and freedom to wake up where you want, regardless of where it is, that's the gift.

That's the gift that an airline ticket gives you. That's the gift that travel gives you. To be in awe of your surroundings is a humbling experience and one that I recommend to everybody.

Brian Jewell (39:02.796)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, last question. Dee, what is something you have seen when you've been traveling that you wish you could go back and experience again with somebody you love?

Dee Kansiime (39:14.05)
I think something that I've seen, there's a place I've been to, I think, Ginger, where they get padlocks and lock, you get and you lock. So it's like you've locked your love there. So the time I go to travel there, I didn't have a partner or I didn't have someone. So like, I think I should go back there with someone so we can lock our love as well. Okay. That is stupid.

Brian Jewell (39:38.862)
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. Steven last word. about you?

Stephen Ekstrom (39:47.138)
moment that I would like to share with others, you know, I, I have to embrace the moment that I'm in right now. You know, my uncle expressed to me an interest in seeing the national parks and how it's been a lifelong dream of his to explore the West and to see absolutely mesmerizing vistas and majesty of, of mountains that are far too grand to comprehend. And, you know,

I had the chance three weeks ago to say, look, we're going to do the national park circuit. Do you want to join us? Wow. And to see a 60 something year old man with tears in his eyes because he is able to experience something that he hadn't before.

is a gift to be able to share.

Brian Jewell (40:38.104)
Yeah, absolutely. You are certainly blessed to be able to do that and sounds like your uncle is too. That's really, really beautiful. Stephen D, thanks so much for joining us today. I appreciate it.

Stephen Ekstrom (40:50.52)
Question for you.

Brian Jewell (40:51.512)
Yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (40:54.582)
What makes you happy?

Brian Jewell (40:57.24)
man. These days, it is time with my kids where there are no competing priorities. My daughter, as we speak today, my daughter is turning 12 and my son is nine. And, you know, they're in that phase of life where I can see the change towards adolescence coming. I can see the teenage years coming. And so we're holding on to every little bit of the magic of, you know, not being a teenager yet. So when we get to

go hiking when we get to go swim on the lake, when we, we've been to Mexico with the kids, when we get to, you know, go to the mountains in Atlanta or, or something like that. Those are moments where I'm more aware than ever that they are fleeting, that it won't be this way forever. And doing my very best to, to hold, hold tight and yet be open-handed at the same time.

Stephen Ekstrom (41:51.726)
I think that's the best gift you can give kids is the opportunity to see their parents as they actually are and to explore the world from their own eyes, which gives us a fresh perspective quite often. My 14 year old niece is with me and to say, put down your phone and look out the window. For the next hour, we're going to be driving through scenery that you'll never see again or you've never seen before.

Brian Jewell (41:53.891)
Yeah.

Stephen Ekstrom (42:22.562)
You know, to be able to share that experience with, with kids, especially it's, it's amazing. So good for you.

Brian Jewell (42:28.45)
Yeah. Well, thanks for the encouragement. I appreciate it. I appreciate you guys making some time for me in your day. thanks so much for adding value to our tourism community today.

Stephen Ekstrom (42:38.626)
Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to be with you and I wish you and your audience the absolute best.

Brian Jewell (42:50.926)
Well, I sure hope you enjoyed that conversation with Stephen and Dee as much as I did. And as always, I want to take a couple of minutes and hit some of the highlights of what they had to say to make sure you don't miss these really important ideas. Now, when I was talking with Stephen about what traditional tourism industry education lacks, he said, you could sit through a workshop, but there was nothing that you could do with the information you received. You were simply talked at.

So you might have some knowledge, but there's no change in who you are, your behavior or the work that you get to do because of it. And he went on to say the second piece that most were missing was engagement. Somebody talking at you or that webinar that plays in the background. People weren't actively participating in their own learning experiences. And a huge part of learning is self discovery. I think Steven is absolutely right about this. think many of us have sat through too many

lackluster conference workshops. And we got to go easy on the conference organizers. A conference is not really a great place to learn. There's so much more going on. You are constantly checking on things back at the office, keeping an eye on your email, trying to network with people. There's just a lot working against conferences as being the ideal settings for continuing education. So I'm not mad at the associations. I'm not mad at

the conference organizers for the way they have traditionally done things. But I do think Stephen put his finger on a real pain point, which is that a lot of the continuing education that traditionally existed in tourism was less than effective. So I love his approach. Let's find ways that we can get education to people where they are and when they want it, when they're available, when they can do it.

and let's do it in ways that create real learning experiences that give opportunities for self discovery, opportunities for engagement, opportunities for real change. Now, when I asked about the role of education in tackling over tourism, Stephen said, what's good for the local is great for the traveler, even if the reverse is not always true. And when people understand that tourism can help communities thrive,

Brian Jewell (45:12.344)
They are more empowered to be part of the tourism community. more willing to accept and to be creative in solving those problems like over tourism. He also said when the local resident understands and knows why tourism is important to them, why it's important to their community. And when the destination is aligned with stewardship principles, everybody is empowered to make a better place to live. And a good place to live is a good place to visit.

think there is a lot of wisdom here. Too often we frame issues in tourism, specifically crowding and traffic and things like that, sustainability issues in tourism as a standoff between what travelers want and what destinations want. But I think if you ask most travelers, they would tell you they want the destinations they visit to thrive. They want people there to have high quality lives because in part,

that makes it a better place to spend time. So I love how Stephen is framing this issue. It's not about us versus them. It's not about does the dollar win out? Does the economy win out or does the environment win out? Does historic preservation win out? It's really not about all of that. It's about helping people from both sides of the table understand how meaningful good travel experiences can be.

how much they can have a positive impact on destinations and then working together to align around ways to do that. I love that approach. I think it could do tremendous good in destinations around the country and indeed around the world. Now, when I asked Dee specifically about some of the skills that have been the most helpful for advancing in a tourism career, Dee responded,

I think one of the most beneficial skills that I've really learned in my career is being a learner and making learning a part of me. It's part of me every day. You can have a lot of focus on storytelling in our industry, maybe customer experience, community engagement, or maybe destination knowledge, but this goes beyond. It's about the mindset. How do you think like someone who represents a place, not just someone that works in it? So one of the best skills that I've gained is a skill that I've been immersed in.

Brian Jewell (47:35.842)
that I've inherited and it's become part of me. Now I love Dee's perspective here. It is never okay to stop learning. It's just never okay. And I get it, life is difficult, work is busy. You have family obligations, you have things going on in the community. The idea of going back to school, the idea of taking more courses, the idea of reading in your downtime, it can be overwhelming. It can maybe be downright unrealistic.

But Dee is exactly right. If you want to advance in tourism, you've got to learn. Some of that learning can happen on the job. Absolutely. Some of it is really up to you. I'll be honest with you. I learned to be a podcaster largely on my own personal time. I've learned how to be a company leader, at least a better company leader, largely on my own time. Reading books, listening to podcasts, watching thought leaders give Ted talks and

YouTube channels and all that sort of thing. And I can't recommend it highly enough. If you want to advance, if you want to grow, if you want your company, your enterprise to succeed, there is no substitute for great education. You've already taken a great first step by joining us here on Gather and Go. And I would just encourage you to keep that momentum going. Find more people like Steven, like Dee to learn from.

it's going to take you to great places. You will be really glad you did. Great stuff there from Steven and Dee. Well, we talked earlier in the episode about this policy in New York city of banning motor coach idling and how that has led to a lawsuit from the motor coach industry. And it got me thinking, you know, there are policies made in governments around the country and around the world that have real impacts on tourism.

And sometimes I wonder if those impacts are even thought through really at all. That's going to be the topic of today's hot minute.

Brian Jewell (49:45.282)
Yeah, that's right. The hot minute is the portion of the program where I take 60 seconds to give you my unfiltered thoughts on an issue that impacts tourism every day. And today we're asking the question, is travel always the victim of bad policy making? So let's put 60 seconds on the clock and get into it. There's an ironclad principle I wish more leaders understood. Every single policy decision

brings unintended consequences, and often the losers are people nobody expected. And unfortunately, in tourism, we always seem to get the butt end of those outcomes. The decision to go to war in Iran could very well depress travel this summer. Shutting down society for COVID nearly destroyed tourism. Tariffs brought Canadian visitation to a standstill and the ban on bus idling

could effectively eliminate group tours in New York City. Now, regardless of how you feel about these decisions, it's important to recognize the law of unintended consequences and perhaps to pause and consider how future policies could affect ourselves and others. And when government has a negative impact on tourism, it is our responsibility to stand up for ourselves.

because nobody else is going to stand up for us. Well, that's it. That's the hot minute. That's how I see things anyway. Of course, as always, you are free to disagree with me and we can still be friends. And hey, whether you agree or disagree, I would sure love to hear from you. You can send your thoughts, questions, or the consequences you never intended to podcast at group travel leader.com.

I read every email that comes into that address. I really do love hearing from you. And hey, you never know. Your ideas might just be the topic of the next hot minute. And hey, while you're in the mood to give us some feedback, would you do me a big favor? Would you go to your favorite podcast playing app? If you haven't already followed the show, then do it right now. While you're in there, if you could give us a rating and leave us a review, that would be so helpful.

Brian Jewell (52:04.728)
And I'm really grateful to everyone who has done that so far. My thanks as well to Steven Ekstrom and Dee Canseme for joining me today. On the next episode, I've got a really enlightening conversation with Bob Sweeney and Doug Haugen of Innovative Travel Acquisitions. They're gonna tell us all about buying and selling tour companies. That's a fascinating interview. I can't wait for you to hear it. Until then though, remember this.

At the end of the day, are all on this trip together. So let's make it a good one. See you next time on Gathering Go.

Brian Jewell (52:45.102)
Gather and Go is hosted and executive produced by me, Brian Schuel. Our publisher is Mack Lacey. Our creative team includes Danya Simmons, Ashley Ricks, and Rachel Crick. Our sales team is Talisa Reck and Ashley De Lucia. To advertise on the podcast, call Talisa at 859-253-0455. Gather and Go is a production of the Group Travel Leader. For more information on our podcast, magazines, and events, visit us online at grouptravelleader.com.