Brian Jewell (00:00.664)
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Visit zooatlanta.org slash groups to start planning your wild adventure today.

Brian Jewell (01:12.25)
Hey there, everybody. Welcome to Gather and Go, the podcast that helps you plan, promote, and lead better trips. I'm Brian Jewell. I am your host. I am feeling, well, kind of well informed today. And I hope by the end of our time together, you will be feeling well informed as well. Now, as always, my promise to you is I'm going to do everything I can to make this investment of your time worth your while. Today we're going to do that.

Through my featured conversation with Douglas Quinby of Arrival. Douglas is a veteran of the tour space. And today he's going to share the results of a large scale news study on the multi day tour market. And when you listen, you're going to hear what kinds of trips are top sellers among tour operators around the country and around the world. You're also going to hear what the most

Profitable tour companies all have in common that is worth the price of admission on its own. Before we get there though, let's start with some travel news you may have missed. G Adventures has introduced tiered booking flexibility. The Worldwide Adventure Tour Operator is borrowing a page from the Airlines with a new-tiered approach to booking flexibility. The company has introduced three options.

Flexi, Flexier, and Flexiest, with progressively more generous cancellation terms. All three offer a full refund more than 60 days before departure with the Lifetime Deposit kept on file. The Flexi option offers up to a 50% refund from 30 to 59 days out. Flexier protects 100% of the traveler's money through a combination of the lifetime deposit and future travel credit.

As close to 21 days before departure. And Flexiest extends that protection all the way to five days before departure. Future travel credits are valid for two years. Now, importantly, this isn't the same as travel insurance. Instead, G Adventures is essentially bringing some of the cancellation risk in-house, allowing travelers to choose how much flexibility they want when they book.

Brian Jewell (03:34.36)
Jeremy Brady, G Adventures Director of Sales for the U.S. and Latin America, said that hesitation before booking is, quote, often driven by uncertainty rather than a lack of desire to travel. The company says the new options are designed to remove some of that uncertainty.

Well, before we move on, I want to take just a minute and share a little bit of news from us. Now, if you are relatively new to the podcast or to the group travel leader, I want to tell you about a resource we have that could be incredibly helpful for you as a group travel planner, especially if you are toward the beginning of your career in group travel. This is a series of online articles we have called Group Travel Essentials that covers everything

Everything you need to know about starting and growing a group travel operation. Now, there are a couple dozen articles in the series so far. We're adding a couple every month. some recent articles that have been very popular and very helpful cover topics such as how to recruit new travelers into your trips, how to work with receptive operators to make your trips to destinations more successful.

And how to build loyalty among your existing customers so they continue to come back on trip after trip with you. Now, the good news about Group Travel Essentials is that it's absolutely free. In fact, everything we do is absolutely free for you as a travel planner. You can find it on our website at group travel leader.com/slash essentials. I'll also drop that link in the show notes to make it easy for you.

You go to that page, you'll find the listing of the dozens of Group Travel Essentials articles we have done. And if you sign up for our newsletter, also while you're there at the site, group travel leader.com slash subscribe, you will get those essentials articles sent directly to your email a couple of times a month as soon as they're ready to go. This is really helpful content. Our team invests a ton of time and thought into them. We're very, very proud of them.

Brian Jewell (05:49.334)
And we know that they will be really helpful for you as you grow your group travel business. So check it out today at grouptraveleader.com/slash essentials. Well, now it's just about time for us to move into our featured conversation with Douglas Quinby. As we do that, let me remind you that you can find a wrap-up of some of the most important things Douglas had to say in the show notes for this episode.

Show notes, of course, are the text that appears below the audio player wherever you are listening to this podcast. And you can find the show notes for our entire library of over 110 episodes on our website at grouptravelleader.com slash podcast. And after the interview wraps up, I'm also going to come back and review a few of the highlights of what Douglas had to say. maybe talk about how you can apply some of those things into your own business.

And I sure hope you will stick with us through that wrap-up because when we're done there, I'm gonna ask the question: How are your work habits affecting your tourism partners? That's gonna be the topic of today's hot minute. You won't want to miss that. We'll be right back with Douglas Quinby.

Brian Jewell (07:16.622)
Alright, everybody, my guest today is a longtime travel researcher who has spent decades studying the tours, activities, and attractions segments of our industry. After spending years tracking tourism trends at Focus Right, in 2016, he founded Arrival, an information and events platform for in-destination experience professionals. Douglas Quinby, welcome to the podcast.

Douglas Quinby (07:39.542)
Hey Brian. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Brian Jewell (07:42.182)
I am so glad to have you here. I'm always super excited when I get to talk to a researcher because you guys are able to bring the data to back up things that I may have seen or heard anecdotally. And sometimes the data is surprising. So I'm really, really glad to have you here. Before we get into the data that we're going to discuss today, tell us about how you found your way into tourism as a as a researcher. Did you start from the research background or did you start from a tourism background and just find research?

Douglas Quinby (08:11.07)
All right. Actually, I started from a journalism background. And so I was a editor and writer at various publications and landed a role at a trade travel trade magazine many years ago. I won't say how many, but kind of cut my teeth on just covering the industry, writing about travel agencies and tour companies. Actually, my first one of my first beats was the tour operator world, which we called package travel.

at the time and and and I was always especially interested in insights and data that was driving changes in the industry. And I was covering travel in the late nineties at this publication when there was this thing called the internet that was just, you know, at the time it was just rapidly changing everything.

about travel and across every sector. And that Delta started that was I was at the magazine when Delta first was the first to, you know, pull down, you know, had put the commission caps on and then reduce them and that whole thing started. Right. And so I was always fascinated by a lot of the research firms that were building out kind of forecasts and tracking consumer behavior. And I just just couldn't get enough of it and kind of pushed into that and and got into the research side.

Brian Jewell (09:39.468)
Yeah, excellent. So you spent a long time at Focus, right? And then about 10 years ago, you launched out and started Arrival. And when you started, you really focused on sort of the the day package, the day experience. And and you've been building in that area for a while. recently, though, you guys started studying multi-day, which is why I was so excited to talk to you. So tell me about why Arrival is kind of looking into the multi-day.

universe 'cause it's a little bit different than the the day tour universe.

Douglas Quinby (10:11.766)
Yeah, it's it's actually it's it's very different in in some really important ways, but there's also a lot of a lot of overlap, right? There's a lot of commonality. And in fact, there are a lot of tour operators who do day tours in multi day. And we found once we we started arrival now 10 years ago, we had a lot of operators coming who were from the multi day world. They were either doing multi day as well.

Or they were also they were coming as buyers, right? Because they're buying experiences from the from the the single day world and working with attractions and and others. And I've been a a student, you know, an observer of the multi-day sector. Well, as I mentioned earlier, for you know, throughout my career. And it's a sector that I I think it it's long

think understudied in a in a in an array of areas, right? And consumer behavior and how consumers think about the sector and it's understudied in terms of the industry and what operators are doing and what they need and what the trends are. I mean, even what's interesting, even today in twenty twenty six, like when you're trying to find out, you know, what's going on in the industry, you know, if you want to know what's happening in the airline world, you know, it

There's lots of data resources. Some you have to pay for, but it's available and you know, right? How many travelers are are going where on what airline, like at what, you know, at at what what seat they've got. All of that is pretty accessible, even on the hotel side as well. There's some great data sources. But whenever I see an article in a trade publication about what's happening in the tour side, well, you know, you know, Joe from

you know, from Joe's tours says, Yeah, things are going pretty good, but this destination's down a bit. And Mary from Mary's tours is saying, Well, this market's doing great. So there's still not that kind of data and accessibility around around the sector. So it's I think it's a it's a gap and an opportunity and that we thought we could support.

Brian Jewell (12:24.642)
Yeah, absolutely. I would now this is me, so you know, take it or leave it. I would go a step further and say, I think we're under researched because we're underappreciated. you know, to to borrow from Ronnie Dangerfield, we don't get no respect in group tour or we we don't get enough. A lot of people, you know, write the group industry off as a bunch of retirees on buses that, you know, the the less we have to think about them, the better. And of course, you know that's not really the case.

Douglas Quinby (12:47.126)
Now, I wanna you're certainly not not underappreciated arrival anyway. So at least there's but there there are a lot of great organizations that are doing, you know, doing a lot. I mean and you know Shannon's group at you know ATTA, they do a lot on the adventure side in particular, European Tourism Association, US T or they're a lot and NTA all doing a lot of things, doing their best, I think they contribute, but it's it's challenging, right? It's a lot of small and medium sized

businesses and there's not a lot mostly private companies, which is another, you know, another factor. it's lightly regulated relative to airlines and hotels. and there's a lot of, you know, technological inhib inhibitors as well, which we can we can talk about too.

Brian Jewell (13:35.086)
Yeah. So the reason I was so excited to get you on today is you guys recently published the results of a really big study of multi-day operators and and came up with some for me really meaningful findings. So tell us what this study was all about, what the scope was, and what you were trying to drill down and uncover.

Douglas Quinby (13:59.788)
Yeah. So well, so first we really just wanted to get like a s just a full picture, frankly, of you know, of the marketplace and of the multi-day world. So how many operators are there? What's the structure of the market? How many do inbound? How many do outbound? How many are kind of scheduled departures? How many do custom? How many are group, you know, kind of group operators? what's the mix of their business?

You know, where are their travelers, you know, coming from? What kinds of products are they offering? What's what's selling? You know, what's not? How do they sell them? What distribution channels do they use? What technology do they use? I mean, we really wanted to cover the full kind of breadth of the industry, like just what makes it tick, what are some of the big trends and and themes? Now we had done this in 2021, right in the middle of the you know the pandemic and

to and that was our first big step into the market. And this was our kind of follow-up. I wish it we had done it sooner, but you know, in twenty twenty five. So it's a good kind of benchmark versus the those four pre

Brian Jewell (15:09.43)
previous years. Yeah. And and so you found over five hundred multi day operators to gather data from, isn't that right?

Douglas Quinby (15:16.536)
Right. Yeah. So we had actually more than five hundred and sixty operators respond the survey from all over the world. huge thanks to you know, we had a lot of great partners on the study, including Tour Radar, European Tourism Association, Lamax, a technology provider, and a few other companies, Kim Kim and some of the big platforms to help us kind of reach all of those those operators, as well as our own.

database. We had a great response and a really good mix of operators by size, business model, you know, inbound, outbound, kind of custom scheduled. So a really good representation of the industry.

Brian Jewell (15:54.444)
Yeah, I love that. All right. So let's talk about the headline findings. What were the the big things that jumped out from that data?

Douglas Quinby (16:01.506)
Yes, you know, so I'll just say first, I mean we asked kind of thirty plus questions and d we kind of dove into really every aspect of the business, right? The structure of the business, how it's performing, kind of what's working, what's not, you know, profitability, product design, trends, you know, technology, operator use of AI. So first, I I'd just say you one of the most

important things for the industry and I think and for for operators to to bear in mind is you know the classics the classics still win so there there's an enormous amount of discussion within our industry and I mean like travel in general about everyone's focused on trends and what's next. And it's you know there's

there's every beginning of every year there's all those articles that come out, you know, there's whatever, right? Cool cations or, you know, regenerative, all of this stuff, right? Or and that's and I those can be important kind of on a topical or year-to-year basis to a degree. But when we look at and we see this too in our day tour research as well, it's you know it's the the classics still win. I mean people want to

know they want to go to Paris, they're you know, sit under the Eiffel Tower with you know with a baguette and a beret and you know like they want to do that the ha have those kind of classic tourist tourist experiences and so I think it's really important to not I guess you know see you know don't mistake the trees for the forest or if if I've got that idiom right or not I I'm not sure I

But but basically, you know, like it's really don't, you know, keep in mind like what travelers fundamentally want. Now, within that, the way they want to experience those classic sites has shifted. And we see it shifting you know, quite, quite dramatically. And we could talk a bit about that. So that's more kind of smaller groups, more intimate experiences, you know, more

Douglas Quinby (18:26.298)
kind more interactive, right, or participatory or immersive as opposed to sit on a bus with 40 people and, you know, listen to, you know, the same the same script, you know, that everybody did for the last the last group. so I think that's one one key theme. something yeah another really big theme, we always look at excuse me, at distribution. So how travelers book, but how operators sell.

and how that's shifting. because the show is just a huge, obviously a huge topic, right, for everybody. So, and there's so much dis disruption that's been happening with with technology and and platforms. And but with multi-day tours, what's interesting from our 2021 study and then the the study we just completed, not really much change. Like we haven't seen a big shift

to online. It's kind of incremental. so yes, people are booking directly with operators. People are booking on some of the big online platforms like Tor Radar and Kim Kim and VioTor and a few others. trade, traditional trade distribution is still the biggest channel. So and now it's a mix of you know, travel agencies, of course. You know, we know it's this huge for this sector, but also other

other wholesalers or other tour operators, you know, that are kind of doing B2B sales and that kind of DMC marketplace. So there's so it hasn't changed much. It really has got us, you know, thinking

about what's you know what's like why why haven't we seen the same ramp up and acceleration in digital sales in this sector versus what we've seen in other sectors of you know of travel. And of course, you know, there's the old, there's the classic, well it's you know, it's more complex, it's a bigger ticket item, there's more, you know, all of those things that need to happen. But the

Douglas Quinby (20:34.678)
You know, technology is improving. It has improved so dramatically. AI is is only going to further accelerate that. but I think there's to me, there's there's something more like when travelers are thinking about a multi-day tour experience, it it really is like it's it's it's not a commodity, whereas you know, scaled digital distribution.

it naturally, you know, it commoditizes the the product, right? That's the very kind of kind of nature of it. And with multi-day tours, like every, you know, a tour is not a product. Like every tour is a a story, right? Or a book. Like it's, it's an adventure that's and it requires there's so many elements to it. And especially when we're seeing the shift towards more custom or flexible itineraries and

or personalization. that's I think an impetive it multi-day resists I don't think it it's gonna resist distribution, but it resists simplification, which I think a lot of distribution requires.

Brian Jewell (21:50.994)
Yeah. So would you say that the multi-day market is lagging in its tech implementation or that it recognizes that the personal touch is what sets it apart and so it is focusing on its differentiators.

Douglas Quinby (22:09.55)
I s well I it's not like an either or I mean I think all of that is, you know, is a play. So we definitely I mean, so like first we we definitely see that there there's a lot of so there's a lot of operators that are just that are lagging in tech, right? They're just they're they are fact I think it's about a third of operators who responded are not using like a dedicated reservations system or a booking system. So there's still a lot of kind of patchwork.

operations that are and processes, right? That are that are taking place. But there's all even with larger operators, there are there are still challenges. Like one of the really big gaps in the space is is it's not actually operator to their point of sale, like connecting or and like workflows between the operator and their sales channel, like a travel agency in the OTA.

The biggest challenge is actually on the supply side for for tour operators. So how do I contract and manage so onboard my suppliers? And then how do I manage all of the bookings with them? It's it's a I think one of the the thorniest manual components.

to the industry and that's I think inhibiting well I think it inhibits you know kind of profitability and kind of efficiencies and which has downstream effects with the guest experience and and and so forth. But there is also yes, there's it is the the it it's e each product is requires

I think that human touch or a lot of the product does and that that selling process is is is needed, especially because we're seeing a shift as well towards more more customization, right? More questions, more flexibility that travelers want. And and each each time the operators, okay, yeah, well, we'll we'll we can do that, but then that means somebody somewhere, you know, down the chain has got to

Douglas Quinby (24:38.806)
Manually do something. They've gotta they gotta write a note or make a shift somewhere or tell somebody else. And then that person has to do something.

Brian Jewell (24:46.462)
And you just described a situation where, you know, working with your vendors is already maybe the most complex part of the operation. And so then to layer on the customization, you're saying let's take the complex part and now make it even more complex. But it but it sounds like you you found people who said we have figured this out or we just, you know, we muscle through and do the work. Is that fair?

Douglas Quinby (25:10.274)
Yeah, so there's there's th that's definitely I I think it's more the muscling through. but I here's one of the things that came out that's we asked about kind of profitability and and performance and and we also we most operators reported being profitable, but not as many as you

you might think actually it was a meaningful majority, but it was maybe you know two thirds or so. So what's happening with that one third, for example? But even those who are, the profitability levels are not like you gotta love the business, right? Because it's right basically, right? You have to love the industry that you work in. I'll just we'll leave it at that. But yeah, one of the most interesting things that came out of this. So we also asked operators, well, what is your product?

portfolio look like? How many products do you offer? And we also asked by product type. So do you like do you do you do, is it basically kind of scheduled, preset, you know, fixed departures? Is it custom itineraries? Is it, is it group? and so like custom kind of group, do you do, is it all FIT? Is it all, is it all custom? Like so and what's that kind of mix? And we had six different product options that we asked about. What was amazing to me

Is most operators offered f multiple product types. So I'm not even saying I'm not even talking about actual products, but just the types of products. So most operators are doing like fixed, kind of scheduled, and they're they're doing kind of custom FIT. And w what we then saw is

There's a very clear correlation between profitability and the number of products that were offered. So the so you would might you would expect larger operators would be more profitable because they're more systematized, they're been in the business longer, they know what they're doing, they've got the tech, all of that stuff. And while it's true, larger operators were more likely to be profitable among profitable operators.

Douglas Quinby (27:35.83)
they were actually the least profitable. And the operators that reported the highest overall level of profitability were those operators that offered one or two different product types. In other words, you know, focus beats breadth. So those operators that are if I'm I am doing this type of product and I'm going to build my business around it.

Then those operators reported more kind of just overall kind of higher profitability. so to me, that's a really important signal about operational discipline, which is I think can be very hard for small business owners and for founders. Believe me, I'm intimately familiar with the like, I want to do this thing. Let's go do this.

Who cares if it doesn't make money? I it's important, but yeah, I totally get that. And I especially when you love the product or you love the idea. But I think there's a there's definitely an opportunity for operators to look at okay, what's your PL by product, by departure? Where are the impacts happening? Because I can see it like they're selling this, but then somebody comes and says, I'd love to do this. Can you do this though? And can you do that?

And we all wanna serve our customers and give them everything that they want, but s I I think being able to say no, sometimes can be the most important thing for at least for your bottom line.

Brian Jewell (29:15.544)
Yeah. And that can be so counterintuitive for somebody in that you know, maybe in that startup mode or, you know, where the margins are very slim and your brain can tell you, I can't say no to anybody. I can't afford to say no to anybody. But in truth, maybe saying yes to everybody is why your margins are so slim, you know?

Douglas Quinby (29:33.058)
Yeah. Yeah, no well it's clear, that is why. Right. I mean we're then we're seeing it.

Brian Jewell (29:37.474)
Yeah. Yeah. That that is fascinating. You mentioned earlier on that you dug into group size, which is something that can play a big part in the profitability of a tour. I remember when, you know, the typical group size was forty or fifty, and tour operators would tell me, if I can't put 45 people on a tour, I'll I'll cancel it. You know, that that's where their their financial thresholds all were. what are you finding about that in the twenty twenty six data?

Douglas Quinby (30:03.64)
Well, we so we've definitely seen a lot of growth in that kind of small group, kind of small operator segment, for sure. Also in consumer work that we've done, kind of on the flip side, not specifically included in this study, but like we've seen this in our day tour work. We've just seen a very clear shift, especially among younger travelers. They want kind of smaller groups, they want more intimate and more personal.

know, experiences. So they want to have a tour with eight to twelve people. they want to they want to participate, they want to have more free time, they wanna I think of it as kind of co co-create, maybe or collaborate right around the experience. It's why we've seen an explosive kind of growth in cooking classes, for example, across Europe, because you don't I don't just want to go out to dinner, I want to learn how to make the paella, right? Or I want to learn how to make

Pasta and have this interactive experience and have wine and meet some locals. And that's increasingly the kind of thing that that consumers are looking for. And we've seen it in the operator data too. So about two-thirds of operators, I mean, it it's basically you could, you know, in the report, it's just small groups at the top, and then it's it's a small group, so under 10, and then kind of 10 to 20 is the next, and then kind of.

20 to 30 and 30 plus. Now, having said that, look, the business, you know, the volume is in the the large groups. I mean, and you know, now tends to be those also can be a bit more can some of the more price sensitive customers. and so the economics there are different. but for those small groups, that's clearly what travel we're looking for.

Brian Jewell (31:56.654)
Yeah. So on the topic of economics, you know, we've been hearing all through 25 and 26 about this K-shaped economy and luxury travel is just surging, luxury prices continue to go up and up and up. what did you find in terms of where multi-day operators are pricing their product in the spectrum of value to luxury?

Douglas Quinby (32:18.53)
Yeah. So well we didn't so we didn't specifically ask about kind of how they price, but what we did ask is what is the average price point like what's selling, right? So so our operators may have a range of different price points, but the the the majority of of bookings are are coming in in that kind of mid market. So basically 1,000 to 5,000, you know, per person, what I think of is that kind of that's solid.

you know, kind of mid market, you know, or to slightly upper, you know, kind of upper mid-market. Now the the now there's a meaningful kind of segment in that kind of 500 to a thousand per person. That's going to be slightly shorter groups, but again, even more so excuse me, shorter tours, but and a bit more price sensitive customer and the real kind of up market, like the

10K, you know, plus that's that's per person. That's relatively small. Now still meaningful in terms of total business, but so but at the same time, this creates a bit of a challenge for the industry because you know, people want small groups, they want flexibility, they want, they want customization, you know, they they want to learn how to you know make their own paella, right? At the same time, they're

you know, they're not everybody's going to be spending 10,000 bucks, you know, per person. And that kind of core, that sweet spot is in that kind of one to five K, one to five K range. So and I think those those operators that I think this is where the the kind of the technology and the operational discipline really comes into play. So where

Can you how can you build that flexible, kind of small group, immersive experience and do that at scale without without killing yourselves, you know, in the back of the house? And I think we're at a place where the technology is available and out there, and the the operational expertise, I think, is.

Douglas Quinby (34:41.453)
is is out there and I'm seeing operators out there. let's give you know kind of one example. you know, We Road, which is based in in Italy and has grown dramatically over the past several years, just got a ton of funding from Airbnb. They raised a big ground and and a few others. But if you go and look at their their site, for example, it's well designed pages, it's small groups, yeah flexible itineraries.

you know, priced, you know, within that kind of 500 to two to three thousand kind of range. And very disciplined on the back end. Now, still a startup, but and lots to prove. But I think that's those are the kinds of companies. I mean there's lots of other examples out there. G Adventures has done that and Intrepid and others. There's lots of great examples.

Brian Jewell (35:30.786)
Yeah. So you're you're putting your finger on something that is fascinating, which is, you know, the the customers are saying we want the small to medium group size, we want the intimate, curated, maybe customized experience. those of us inside the industry know that just costs more. It it simply costs more. And so what I hear you saying is maybe the way that people can meet that need, but also hit the the value point that the customer is looking for price-wise, is to exercise that discipline in your operations.

in your tech in your back of the house. And so it could be that your competitor, you know, the next date over or down the street, is paying the same prices that you are to the vendors, but they're able to sell the tour cheaper because they have exercised the discipline and onboarded the right systems to make sure they're getting the bang for their buck. Is it is that a fair characterization?

Douglas Quinby (36:20.366)
Yeah, yeah. And I'd and I'd go maybe one step further and say there's so look, there's no question. So tour operating is just a really hard business, operationally complex. one one of the most, I think and on the day tour side too. Like it's just there's a lot to manage and

workflows are complex, especially in multi-day. And there's I think enormous opportunity with with some of the developments in AI, and in particular agentic AI, to be able to insert agents to handle a lot of those kind of challenging kind of workflow issues that historically you really required, really needed a human to to step in.

increasingly those things can be pushed off to an agent. So those operators that can drive those efficiencies and by taking humans not out of the not out of the equation, but just freeing up your humans from doing a lot of that basically it's kind of manual intervention that it's complex manual intervention. That's

You know, that's the opportunity there. And those operators that are that can do that over the next few years will pull apart from the pack. And we're already seeing that in some of our in some of our data where there's a subset of operators that are clearly they're just outrunning you know the rest of the market.

Brian Jewell (38:02.294)
Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. All right. So Douglas, if people want to see this data or learn more about arrival and attending an arrival event, being an arrival member, or if they just want to connect with you, what are the best ways for them to do those things?

Douglas Quinby (38:18.48)
so arrival dot travel, that's arrival with with one R. so everything is there and folks are welcome to to email me. I'm Douglas at arrival dot travel and LinkedIn and and elsewhere. So yeah, I would love to hear from you and love to get kind of feedback and and hear from operators.

Brian Jewell (38:38.946)
Yeah, absolutely. And you have more research planned, right? There's some big consumer research coming up.

Douglas Quinby (38:43.904)
Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking. We so we are going to be doing our operator survey now every year. And we're just we're beginning to kick the next survey off. So I'd also say for you know, for those of you out there who responded to the survey last year, you know, thank you very much. And if you see the email cross your desk over the next several months, please take the time. It really helps us do this work. And yeah, we've got a big for the first time a consumer survey specifically on multi-day.

To delve into a lot of these topics fr but you know, from the traveler perspective.

Brian Jewell (39:18.188)
Yeah. that's fantastic. I can't wait to see that data when it comes out. now before I let you go, we have some questions we ask everybody. These are just for fun. So no pressure. So whatever whatever comes to your mind. Sure. first of all, when you book travel, do you book a window seat or an aisle seat? Yeah. Yeah, you you need to get up.

Douglas Quinby (39:33.943)
Yeah, always I.

Douglas Quinby (39:37.59)
Look, over fifty I need to use the bathroom more frequently. That's just the that's just the the the real deal, how can I say

Brian Jewell (39:45.496)
That's the mechanics of being human and it I'm I'm not far behind you. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So what's something in your carry-on that you would not travel without?

Douglas Quinby (40:00.31)
Mm.

you know, actually I more and more I'm trying to travel without a carry-on. I I you know it's I know everybody in the travel industry, they like to avoid checking your luggage, but I just I I don't I just I'm trying to travel slower when I do and, you know, not worry about things and take my time and I just get on get on the plane with a good book and a good set of earphones if I want to watch a movie. That's about it.

Brian Jewell (40:31.918)
Yeah, good plan. I like it. So if you had a free airline pass and a week with nothing else to do, where would you go?

Douglas Quinby (40:40.215)
wherever my kids are.

Brian Jewell (40:42.668)
Yeah. Are they in different parts of the country or different parts of the world right now?

Douglas Quinby (40:48.432)
we hang out. One one is at home, one is in college, but actually is about to undertake a an internship in in Europe. So he's he's in computer science. So probably he wouldn't appreciate it if I hopped on a plane to to hang out with him. So but yeah, so typically wherever they want to go, I'll well we follow along.

Brian Jewell (41:07.874)
Yeah. Well, our last question is related. what is something you have seen or done on the road that you wish you could go back and do again with somebody you love?

Douglas Quinby (41:18.826)
Douglas Quinby (41:31.218)
boy. That's that's a great question.

I don't you know, I I think I'd like to do new things. I I can't you know, I've I've been so fortunate in my career, I've been able to travel to so many places and see so many things and meet so many amazing people. I would definitely say I've had a lot of amazing travel experiences from through work where, you know,

My wife was not along or my kids, you know, were not, you know, were not there. And, you know, you have that amazing meal at a restaurant, you know, and yeah, you're there with industry colleagues. Like, I I think I'd rather be here with my wife. Yeah. So nothing nothing negative to all of all of those wonderful industry colleagues I've had dinner with over the years. Love you all. But yeah, no, I think it's I think it's

Brian Jewell (42:23.822)
Yes. Yeah.

Douglas Quinby (42:37.258)
No specific place, but it's that you know, it's that special it's that special spot you found, you know, the the cafe you went into or the bar you you popped into or the restaurant you went to and you were with the colleague and Yeah. And yeah, I thought it's I'd say that that would be it.

Brian Jewell (42:55.254)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Douglas, it's been a blast. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll have to have you back.

Douglas Quinby (43:00.046)
Brian, thank you very much. This was a pleasure. A lot of fun.

Brian Jewell (43:10.222)
Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Douglas as much as I did. And I want to take a few minutes to go through some of my main takeaways from our time together and discuss some things that I don't want you to miss, maybe give you some ideas about how you can apply them to your travel business. So when we were talking about tour operators challenges, Douglas said the biggest challenge is actually on the supply side for tour operators. How do I contract and manage and onboard my suppliers?

And then how do I manage all of the bookings with them? It's one of the thorniest manual concepts of the industry, and it inhibits profitability and efficiencies and has downstream effects with the guest experience. Now, this isn't exactly surprising news, but what I really want to point out is that Douglas was drawing the connection between your perhaps chaotic vendor management systems or lack of systems.

And the profitability of your business. Basically, what he's saying is if you don't have great systems, not only for dealing with your customers, but for dealing with your vendors, it's going to make you less efficient, it's going to make you less profitable. And ultimately, it has a negative impact on the guest experience. I think Douglas is making a phenomenal point here. And it's worth pointing out that there are solutions to these problems. Yes, vendor management is complicated.

Yes, finding the right suppliers to do business with takes some work. And if every single one of them has a different way of interacting, you can imagine how that becomes a headache. But there are systems, tools, networks that have been built to help you sort of centralize your supplier management processes. And I would encourage you to investigate, research, and maybe try out those systems. Are any of them perfect?

No. Are any of them comprehensive? No. But there is enough of a great tool there that I think it can help you begin to put together a system that will increase your efficiency. And the more tour companies that do it, the more vendors are going to participate. And it's really going to take some critical mass in our industry for this to become a sort of normalized, systematized way of doing business. But once it does.

Brian Jewell (45:33.678)
It's going be better for the vendors, it's going to be better for the tour operators, and it's going to be better for all our mutual customers. That's really what matters most. Okay, next, when we were discussing the characteristics that profitable tour companies have in common, Douglas said there's a very clear correlation between profitability and the number of products that were offered. He said larger operators were more likely to be profitable.

But they were actually the least profitable. And the operators that reported the highest overall level of profitability were those operators that offered one or two different product types. In other words, focus beats breadth. I love this so much. I feel like Douglas is saying something that I have been saying for a long time. You might get tired of hearing me say it, but I'm going to say it again because I think it is good for you.

You're not going to succeed in tourism by offering every single kind of trip you can think of, or every single trip that anybody in your ecosystem asks you about. No, you're much more likely to succeed in tourism by finding the one or two kinds of trips that you are like the best in the world at. Continue running those kinds of trips, attracting the people that want exactly that experience. You're going to get better and better the more you do it.

And you're going to get more profitable because you are bringing larger economies of scale and more specialization, more stronger relationships with your vendors and your customers. That's where success is in tourism. So stop chasing every idea that comes across your desk. Start figuring out where you can specialize and really become world class. Finally, when we were talking about the

Price points of tours and what sells best, Douglas said the majority of bookings are coming in the mid-market, basically $1,000 to $5,000 per person. And he said this is where technology and operational discipline really comes into play. How can you build that flexible small group immersive experience and do that at scale without killing yourselves in the back of the house?

Brian Jewell (47:52.91)
Now it's no surprise that the mid market is where the bulk of sales are. But again, I want to draw your attention to the point that Douglas is making. Those mid market tours can be the ones that exhaust you because you are trying to deliver a genuinely if not premium, then semi premium experience that can require customization, that can require a lot of extra work. And if you don't have the systems and the operational discipline,

In the back of the house to support that extra work, then those top selling tours, even though they may be your most popular, are probably not your most profitable because you're spending so much extra time and resource trying to make them right. So again, this is an argument for investing in processes inside your business, investing in systems and technologies, investing in people who can scale up with you without adding.

More complexity. As you do that, you start to shift the profitability promise of those popular trips forward. And so your bestsellers can also become your most profitable. And that is the sweet spot where you want to be as a travel business owner. Great stuff there from Douglas Quinby.

So Douglas talked about supplier relationships being the most difficult part of running a tour company. And you know, I've been hearing for a long time many tour operators saying, Brian, I just can't get my suppliers to call me back. I can't get them to return my emails. I can't get them to do business in a way that I'm used to doing business that I need them to be available for us to be able to conduct business well.

And you know, Douglas highlighted that this isn't just an operational issue, but it can actually impact the bottom line. It can impact the profitability of a tour company. And so today we're going to discuss that in the hot minute. Yeah, that's right. The hot minute is the portion of the show where I take 60 seconds to give you my unfiltered thoughts on an issue that impacts tourism every day. And today the question we're asking suppliers is this.

Brian Jewell (50:13.334)
Are your work habits costing your tourism partners money? So let's put 60 seconds on the clock and get into it.

I'm not surprised that the arrival study found supplier relations to be the biggest challenge facing tour companies today. Operators have been telling us that since the pandemic. And I'm sure there are no easy solutions to this problem. But one thing I think we need to be reminded of is that whatever role we play in the tourism ecosystem, we all have people counting on us. If you are a tour supplier,

Your customers count on you to help them plan great trips. If you drop the ball in doing that, you're making their job harder and less profitable. And ultimately, you're impacting their customers too. There are a thousand tech tools out there to help you organize your inbox, manage leads, and become more productive. So please pick one and start using it. Because the calls you're failing to answer might be hurting.

Your customers bottom line.

Brian Jewell (51:28.524)
Well, that's it. That's the hot minute. That's how I see things anyway. Of course, as always, you are welcome to disagree with me, and we can still be friends. And hey, whether you agree or disagree, I would love to hear from you. You can send your thoughts, questions, or the emails you still haven't returned to podcast at grouptraveleader.com. I read every email that comes into that address. I really do love hearing from you. And hey, you never know.

Your ideas might just be the topic of the next hot minute. And while you're in the mood to give me some feedback, would you do me a big favor? Would you go to your favorite podcast playing app? If you haven't already subscribed to the show, then do it while you're there. And if you could also give us a rating, leave us a review. That would be really helpful. And I am sincerely grateful to everyone who has done that so far. My thanks as well to Douglas Quimby for joining me today.

On the next episode, I'm going to bring you a really cool conversation with Allie Raymer of Peace and Pearl Travel Company about how she has found success with Pied Piper group trips. That's a fascinating conversation. You won't want to miss it. Until then, though, remember this. At the end of the day, we are all on this trip together. So let's make it a good one. See you next time on Gather and Go.

Gather and Go is hosted and executive produced by me, Brian Schuel. Our publisher is Mac Lacey. Our creative team includes Dania Simmons, Ashley Ricks, and Rachel Crick. Our sales team is Talesa Reck and Ashley DiLuccia. To advertise on the podcast, call Talesa at 859-253-0455. Gather and Go is a production of the Group Travel Leader. For more information on our podcast, magazines, and events, visit us online at grouptravelleader.com.