Brian Jewell (00:01.144) Jeff Minn, welcome to the podcast. Jeff Ment (00:03.214) Thank you for having me. It's a beautiful day to be here calling from Connecticut. So lovely to spend time with you today. Brian Jewell (00:09.836) Yeah, I'm excited to have you with us. I heard you speak to an industry group earlier this year. And some of the things that you said kind of made my eyes pop out of my head. I had no idea about some of the legal intricacies and and frankly risks that are out there for tour operators. and I've been in the business 20 years. So I thought, well, if I don't know about these, I bet a lot of our listeners don't either. So I'm so glad you're here to help us learn about these really important topics. Before we get there though. Tell us about your background. You came to travel law through a really interesting path. So tell us how that happened for you. Jeff Ment (00:43.384) The the the path started forty-four years ago at my mom's travel agency when she said, Can you file some brochures? Back in an era where suppliers sent brochures by the box load. And there I was unpacking, organizing, alphabetizing, learning the names of all these great companies and suppliers. And it's really fun because now I've gone on to represent a lot of those companies. So over a four decade. Period. I've been a travel agent, I've been a tour guide, and I've been a sales manager for two airlines. So tying that all together with a law degree can make a pretty interesting combination. I'm the product of a mom, travel agent, and a dad who's a judge. So I took a little bit of each of them and became a travel lawyer. Brian Jewell (01:37.516) Yeah, it's like it was destined to be. It it couldn't have come out any better. Jeff Ment (01:41.398) I don't know what else I would have done. So I'm happy to be doing what I do. Brian Jewell (01:43.139) Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. So I think a lot of people maybe have ideas about what law is all about from TV. Other people might have, you know, hired a lawyer at some point to maybe help them incorporate their business or to deal with a, you know, a family member's estate or something like that. What does a travel lawyer do that people don't see on TV or they haven't, you know, done with their local business attorney for some other reason? Jeff Ment (02:10.147) I think the best definition of what I do for travel companies is to really just say, I really act as your general counsel. And that might be an employment problem today, it could be a customer problem tomorrow, it could be a seller of travel registration issue, it could be applying for your ARC accreditation, it could be dealing with your terms and conditions, your contracts, your independent contractors. And honestly, We can do all of those things in one day for different clients. It's just like a revolving wheel where we're jumping on and jumping off of topics that really all centrally deal with travel companies. Like we don't represent other companies. We just really do this in a very closed community of travel companies that might range from a one-person stay-at-home travel agent. to a corporation with thousands of employees and tens of thousands of guests per year. So it's fascinating. You can see it all. And the same issues apply to the small and large client of ours. Brian Jewell (03:14.53) Yeah. Brian Jewell (03:21.142) Okay, so that's what I want to know more about because, you know, we all think of a a company with thousands of employees and say, certainly they have legal representation. They probably have somebody on staff who is a, you know, full time attorney. But at the other end of the spectrum, I know there's those, you know, solopreneurs sitting at home part time working and travel thinking, Well, why on earth would I need an attorney? You know, that nobody I'm not risking anything, nobody's gonna come after me. But you're saying that's actually probably not the case. Jeff Ment (03:48.12) So it's gotten interesting since the pandemic. the pandemic really changed travel, and it was rough in the in the 2020, 2021 period. But as we emerged from that, we saw so many people getting into travel. It was like a a regeneration of the travel industry in terms of tour operators, travel advisors, people who saw an opportunity for just fantastic growth and a Blossoming of what had really petered out for two years. And so the small and the large people have the same issues, just at maybe a different scale. They have employment issues. They have trademark issues. They have terms and conditions. They have contracts. Sure, the big company might have a hundred contracts, and the small company might have two. The small company has one IC. The big company has a thousand. It's the same thing though. It's just to scale. And so I think what we can do is give that small company the same best practices and legal advice as we do for the largest. I mean, honestly, some of our clients are the largest travel companies in the world. So it's fascinating to be able to sort of see it. Brian Jewell (05:07.34) Yeah. Jeff Ment (05:10.317) From all these perspectives. Brian Jewell (05:11.97) Yeah. And one of the particular intersections that you sit at is with tour companies, which is different in many ways, I'm sure, than airlines and and cruise companies and things like that. So if we drill down on the tour operator, what are some of the unique things about where they're situated that mean they have to take extra considerations in their, you know, legal coverage? Jeff Ment (05:36.138) So I love tour operators. what does a tour operator really do? Is always a good question to start with. Because you're going to find most tour operators say they sell tours. Great. Whose tour are they selling? Is it their own? Is it someone else's? Is it a DMC's tour? How are they building the components of the tour? Most tour operators are going to build a tour block by block by block and they're going to package it together, add in some profit, and sell it to some nice people to go. So they're not actually running the tour. They're hiring, they're contracting with. And so tour operators, at least in the US, are pretty fortunate. Because the law of the land really is that a tour operator has to do a good and reasonable job building a tour. And it can often shed the risk and the responsibility for what the tour provider suppliers do on the tour. So since we're talking to an educated audience, everyone knows that the suppliers and the providers are the people with the motor coaches. The people leading you on an excursion, the hotel, the experience, the restaurant. As a tour operator, you don't control or manage any of those. And you don't have to be responsible for those company mistakes. You have to be responsible in the building of your blocks, in the building of your tour. So we really give good advice about how a tour operator can follow the best practices. In building a tour? That's a general answer. Now, some of my clients run their own tours and they don't outsource it to other people, and they've got boots on the ground in different countries, and some of my clients own their own DMCs. So that's slightly different because they have more responsibility because they're really the seller and the operator. So think of it that way: are you the seller or the operator? Brian Jewell (07:27.756) Mm-hmm. Jeff Ment (07:55.277) Are you both? It may be different from tour to tour, so you might have to remember which hat you have on at the moment for what's your responsibility. But tour operators sit in a great space in the US because of how the law has really evolved over time. Brian Jewell (08:11.906) Yeah. A lot of tour operators are working with a client set, you know, in their community, they're around their city or state, and they take those people to other destinations. You know, if they're crossing state lines, let's say, how does that impact things? Does it not matter if it, you know, I'm in Kentucky and and take a group to Missouri or does Missouri law change you know, the applicable things I have to think about? Jeff Ment (08:36.376) Yeah, I think that most tour operators are going to have in their terms and condition, probably down at the very bottom, what law applies to the trip and what law applies to the booking. And most people just assume that they should pick their home state because they figure that if something goes wrong, they'll be amongst a jury of their people. That is a really overly simplistic. Brian Jewell (09:01.996) Mm-hmm. Jeff Ment (09:06.09) And probably elementary view of that, that one sentence that's literally almost the last sentence in most people's terms can make or break how your case turns out. Because if you pick your home state, but your home state has law that's not helpful to your case, you're cooking your own goose. Like, why would you pick a state? Like Virginia. If you pick Virginia to be your choice of law, you're picking a state that doesn't typically enforce releases. So why pick it? So you're right. There has to be some forethought into that, so that you're not just saying, Hey, I'm in Virginia, so I'm gonna pick Virginia, because when the first case comes up, you're gonna be pretty frustrated that you picked Virginia. And there's some outliers like that around the country, which is why people really need to, you know, pay attention to what they're preparing and drafting and putting out there on their on their company's behalf. Brian Jewell (10:16.076) Yeah. So since you mentioned releases, I'm gonna ask you something I've always been curious about. We're all used to, you know, signing a release when we do anything moderately potentially dangerous, you know. Certainly if you're going bungee jumping, but maybe maybe even horseback riding, you might have to sign a release. I I have heard some people say those releases are ironclad, and I've had some people say those releases aren't worth the paper they're printed on. So from an operator's point of view, which of those is true or does it really depend? Jeff Ment (10:42.548) you know, both are true. Both are true because a poorly drafted one isn't worth the paper it's printed on. And one that doesn't have the right language for the state that you want to interpret it isn't worth the paper it's printed on. One that is used to have a parent sign away the rights of a child may not be worth the paper it's printed on. But Brian Jewell (10:45.613) Wow. Jeff Ment (11:12.98) Regardless, everybody should use them because, at a minimum, they help deter claims. They make people think twice about filing because they read it and they think, I can't do anything about this. I signed this thing. So your first statement was true. Some are good, some are bad. You won't really know until you're in the hot seat trying to enforce it. But you can at least predict in advance the likelihood of it being upheld just by looking at your your law and the state that you're trying to do this in. And really spending some time and a little bit of money to draft it so it's gonna work. Copying somebody else's, doing it off of the internet, trying to make your own, are certainly gonna save you a few bucks in the near term. But may cost you a lot more in the long run. Brian Jewell (12:12.736) So you're saying I can't have AI write my releases for my tour company or I shouldn't do it. Jeff Ment (12:17.55) I you know, I wondered was AI gonna replace me? And over the past six months I've convinced myself I actually might give AI a good run for its money because some of the things that people have sent us have just been fantastically odd that AI has created and things that'll just never work in front. I mean, the judge is not AI, thank God. So the judge is a person and the judge is gonna employ his or her you know, thinking process and I think that's gonna keep lawyers in business for at least the next few years. Brian Jewell (12:53.944) Yeah, well that is good news. Now you mentioned terms and conditions a few minutes ago. I think a lot of operators know they need to have something like that. Many of them, as you mentioned, probably bought it off a template or, you know, copied from a buddy's. what are the biggest weaknesses that you see in tour operators' terms and conditions documents? Jeff Ment (13:13.152) So the first weakness is that the people don't know where it is or how to find it or how to be bound by it. You can have a great document, but if it's buried in a link that you can't find, it's not helpful. Because when courts go to analyze these, they focus on one word initially, and that's the word conspicuous. So are the terms and conditions conspicuous? Do the people actually have to work hard to find them? That is not conspicuous. Are they right in front of them on a link that says click here for our terms and conditions? Is that link on the bottom of three pages of other stuff? So we're first gonna worry about can the people find them? We're next gonna worry about did the people agree to them? So I think when I when I talk about this, I talk about I kind of use the analogy of Olympic medal, gold, silver, and bronze. The gold is a signature on a piece of paper. Some people do it still. The silver is a check the box or a click and agree or some kind of electronic docu sign. And the bronze is by booking with us, you agree to these terms, but the person's not actually doing something affirmatively to agree. So gold, silver, bronze. And if you don't have one of those three. You ain't in the top three, and your terms are really gonna be hard to enforce. So they've got to be conspicuous. The people have to at least have hopefully gold or silver, in my mind, about the enforceability. And then you get into the substance, right? You gotta pass those first two tests like monopoly. You gotta go, you gotta pass go. And so if you're conspicuous, and if they've agreed to them. Jeff Ment (15:17.034) Now we're going to look at the substance and the merit of the actual words on paper and see if they're going to hold up. And that's, you know, it sounds complicated. And I don't want to make this sound like, you know, we're we're not, you know, rocket scientists. I mean, we're lawyers who can create things that should work for a travel company. And everybody needs to at least every couple of years look at theirs again. What you did 10 years ago is not still good. Brian Jewell (15:25.165) Yeah. Jeff Ment (15:47.149) What you did in 2019, if you're still using something from pre-pandemic, you're really putting yourself at risk. So much has changed in the past six years about what we write. We look back now at terms and conditions we wrote a year ago and say things differently today because they evolve over time based on conditions and things that occur in our very ever-changing travel industry. Brian Jewell (16:17.688) So is some of what you're doing looking at new case law that comes out, new things that are litigated in travel and saying, well, now that we have this outcome I need to adjust the T and Cs? Jeff Ment (16:18.105) Go ahead. Jeff Ment (16:27.628) Yeah, we look at outcomes, we look at decisions, we look at what's not worked for people. And we also have the benefit of listening to other lawyers who are on the other side of the coin who are representing customers and making arguments to us. And sometimes sheepishly we learn a couple things from somebody because they see it differently, and we don't You know, we see it in a in rose colored glasses because we're the travel people. But I gotta tell ya, like I've met some really interesting lawyers in my time doing this that bring out some interesting ideas and do cause us to do things differently. Sure. Brian Jewell (17:12.962) Yeah. Well, that's fascinating. So at the other end of the tour operators, you know, intersection is their vendors. So, you know, we've talked about your your legal agreement with your customers, but you have legal agreements with your vendors. what are some of the pitfalls in those agreements? Jeff Ment (17:30.008) You just made a really interesting statement. You said you have agreements with your vendors. There will be some people that listen to us doing this talk right now that do not have agreements. They think they have an agreement, they have a phone call, they have an email, they have a rate sheet, they have a yeah, we'll keep the same rates as 2025. That's like their agreement. So you're right. Have an agreement. Have an agreement with your suppliers and your vendors. So that somebody can be held responsible for something. It's a little trickier when you're outside of the country and you're negotiating with international suppliers or international DMCs or experienced providers. Because, yeah, they might have insurance, but may not exactly be what you think it is, because you may actually not even be able to read the policy because it's in a foreign language. You may find out that a claim has to be filed in that country rather than in the US. So there's all kinds of little things that may pop up and bite you that you learn about. But you need an agreement with your suppliers because just like the customers, you're the tour operator, you're in the middle, the customers on one side, the suppliers on the other. You really want to be sure to have some good language to protect you. Money, right? Where's the money come and where's the money go? And how how when do you give it to the supplier? And are you tying up the supplier so that it can only use your money for your trip? Or is it going to be the take from Peter to Pay Paul analogy that we see every single day in travel? And your money is paying for some other guy's trip that's today, and you hope that somebody's going to pay them in three months. So that they can run your trip. So maybe you don't want that nonsense to happen. Maybe you want to talk about where your money's gonna sit until it's used to fund your trip. And I think what tour operators sometimes don't appreciate is the power that they actually have. I hear all the time: it's the only DMC, it's the only hotel. That's not usually true. And so I think. Jeff Ment (19:54.997) Oftentimes you need to flex your muscle a little bit because you're the customer when you're dealing with the supplier. So you're you're on the other end with the customer, and now you're going to the DMC supplier provider. You're the customer. Exert some muscle power so that you can really protect yourself with a strong contract with that partner. Brian Jewell (20:20.504) Hmm. Now I think a lot of vendors, you know, their master service agreement or their template contract probably has some language in it that, you know, w they're trying to do everything they can to get out from under liability or responsibility. what sorts of things do tour operators need to look out for in those contracts and say, Hey, wait a minute, I I think this is shifting too much responsibility onto me. Jeff Ment (20:42.402) Yeah, sure. The I mean the one right off the bat is that they're not responsible for their own mistakes. Like you you do not want to partner with a travel supplier that isn't going to be responsible for its own mistakes. Like you gotta watch out for that. You don't want a travel partner supplier that has a one-way indemnification provision only in favor of them. You need it to be mutual because the They're not going to need to be indemnified by you, but you might need to be indemnified by them if there's a motor coach accident. I mean, I I don't know. In the past one month, I've had clients with bus accidents. I've had clients with a bus that crashed into an overpass in Italy. I've had a student operator with a bus crash with a three-bus caravan. I've had a a child burn himself on a stove. Brian Jewell (21:33.987) Mm. Jeff Ment (21:38.849) Japan taking cooking lessons as part of the trip. People, three people fell off horses this week with another tour operator. And so you really need to have a usable, workable, fightable set of contract provisions with your supplier. Insurance, indemnity, where's the money? When's the money due? Force majeure. What happens if the trip can't happen and you need to get that money back? How about all my clients that have trips to the Middle East? I talk to them all the time. I had a lady on the phone the other day. She's got a trip to Jordan. Jordan's State Department level three. Okay, well, reconsider travel. Okay, well, we're reconsidering, but we still want to go. Well, the people don't want to go. Is it, you know, force majeure usually deals with things that are unforeseeable? Conflict in the Middle East is foreseeable. So suppliers over there are smart because they talk about the unforeseeable conflict, and then they tell you, no, you're you still have to come to Jordan because all this conflict, it's foreseeable. And you can't have your money back. You know, it's it's tough, right? You you don't blame them because they're trying to survive. And the country is still open. And you can still fly there. Not as easily, but you can still kind of get to Jordan. even though they, you know, disbanded their tourism board. things like that make me think about, you know, what you need to do if you're a tourist. Brian Jewell (23:17.538) Right. Brian Jewell (23:23.458) Yeah. All right. So you mentioned, you know, four or five little accidents and and things that have happened recently. walk us through, you know, if that happens on your trip to one of your customers, what is likely to happen next? Is there going to be litigation? If there is, is somebody going to come after you? Are you protected? How long is it going to take to get this problem out of your life? Jeff Ment (23:46.017) first step, have a crisis management plan. Most of your EO insurance companies require you to at least have a rudimentary crisis management plan. Dust it off, have a read so that you can know what to do when something goes wrong. And you should know that something will go wrong. In our industry, something will go wrong for somebody, almost weekly. So you need to know what your what your initial reaction is, who do you call? What do you do? Because I've learned, and and there are people out there that preach this all the time, that a good positive reaction to a bad event prevents more bad things from happening, like lawsuits. So I had a tour operator that had a four-person fatality on a on a on a river rafting float ride that turned out to be a disaster. The company's response was so good that the only lawsuits that came out of that were for the four deceased people, which are clearly understandable. But all the other people who got thrown in, who witnessed the whole event, the company handled it so well that they prevented more bad things from happening from a bad event. So Somebody's gonna have to get on a plane or on a bus or in their car and go to where the thing happened. Somebody's gonna have to deal with the aftermath of it. And you have to pick the right person. And you know, selfishly, you need to get a lawyer involved because once a lawyer is involved, you can have a work product privilege over a lot of these documents and emails that are gonna start to float around. Because once you start copying the lawyer. Doesn't have to be me, but if it is, that's wonderful. But once you start copying the lawyer on all these emails, you're giving that lawyer a good argument about privileged communications so that all that stuff isn't just going to be turned over to the other side because you're going to be able to say, that's protected work product. So things like that are helpful in a crisis and obviously making sure the people are safe. Brian Jewell (25:59.918) Mm-hmm. Jeff Ment (26:07.202) And you're gonna have to spend some money in a crisis. You can get Aeon, for instance, offers, and not that this is I don't care who you have insurance with, but Aeon has a as a provision in their policy that they allow a certain amount of money to like crisis response. That's a great provision to have in your insurance policy. Brian Jewell (26:27.842) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So if it does proceed to litigation, how long does it usually take to settle or litigate or, you know, get to the part of your life where you're not thinking about this crisis still? Jeff Ment (26:41.752) Yeah, it could be three years. I mean, it it it's it's it's a three year problem. I mean, hopefully they settle quicker. Most do. Everybody knows you'll y'all hear the statistic, like ninety-nine percent of things settle, which is true, but sometimes they settle as you're marching closer to the courthouse steps. So I think when you know, when you find yourself in that predicament, you should plan for a three year mess. Brian Jewell (26:43.549) my goodness. Brian Jewell (27:06.284) Yeah. Well, let's hope that doesn't happen often. another thing that you and I've talked about before that I find fascinating is all the compliance that is legally required of tour companies that they may not be thinking about, things on their website, things regarding ADA. what are some of the big compliance pitfalls that you see for tour operators? Jeff Ment (27:26.306) Well, more and more we're seeing website issues and problems. In fact, I have a whole presentation I do about how your website can get you sued. that that's not one that I did 10 years ago because over the last 10 years that's really become a problem. So anybody who has a website is a potential defendant to some of these law firms that are targeting companies that don't comply either with ADA Website accessibility guidelines or privacy laws in various states. Leading the nation, of course, is our great state of California with its very robust and very strongly worded law about invasion of privacy. If I go on your website and you're just some company and you're in Connecticut, but I live in California. And you're using some kind of technology tracking pixel, that's a phrase I didn't even know 10 years ago. But if you're using a tracking pixel, think Meta, think Google, think LinkedIn, and you capture my IP address in that initial second that I click on your website, I now can sue you under California law. Because you didn't have my consent to capture my IP address. Think about that. Everybody listening to this presentation needs to check with their tech people to see if you're compliant with what's called CEPA, California Invasion of Privacy Act. And probably you're gonna find that you're not. And you're equally gonna find that the fix takes a couple minutes for these computer people. To fix, well worth the time spent. If you'd learned nothing else from this presentation, take that as good sound advice. Brian Jewell (29:32.492) Yeah, that that is really good. and what about ADA? That's you know, I mean you you talked about the website, but there are there are also ADA implications for how you operate trips, right? Jeff Ment (29:42.447) The Americans with Disabilities Act is a great powerful law that applies in America. So for anyone taking folks out of the country, it does not apply. So when people say you have to accommodate me, you do not have to accommodate them out of the country. You might want to, you might choose to, and you're more than welcome to do that. But the ADA requires a company to make a reasonable accommodation. Highlight the word reasonable. Because then your next question should be, Jeff, what is reasonable? And reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. My idea of reasonable and yours might differ. You don't have to materially change your product. You don't have to change the nature and configuration of your trip. But if you can make a reasonable accommodation that someone with a mobility issue can still participate. In the US, you are required to do that because you're offering a thing, a trip, to the public, to public places, which is what the ADA captures. So if you're a tour operator and you get asked about an ADA accommodation and you say no, you need to really have a reason for saying no, because you can get sued for saying no. By someone. And unfortunately, there are people out there that are looking to create problems for good, honest people running companies because you say no and you don't have a justification for it. So it can't just be a knee-jerk no, it has to be a well thought out why is it reasonable or why is it unreasonable to make the accommodation? Brian Jewell (31:38.412) Yeah. that's fascinating. Jeff, I could talk to you all day about this stuff. I know there's so much more here. if somebody is hearing us today and saying, I probably need to talk to Jeff about some things in my business, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Jeff Ment (31:42.648) Yeah. Jeff Ment (31:52.665) I think just a quick email to jment at mentlaw.com, J-M-E-N-T at MentLaw.com. And we would love to try to help you. We give some we give everyone kind of a free consultation phone call. And oftentimes your question can be answered in that free consultation phone call. So I may get nothing more than the opportunity to say hello to you and answer your question, and that's honestly just fine. Brian Jewell (32:20.194) Yeah, well, that's a a great resource. We'll be sure to link to that in the show notes. now before I let you go, we have some questions we ask everybody. These are just for fun. So you can answer off the top of your head. when you book travel, do you book a window seat or an aisle seat? Jeff Ment (32:34.476) I am an IL seat guy. Brian Jewell (32:36.62) Yeah, is there a reason behind that? Jeff Ment (32:39.012) I like to get up and walk around. I actually like to go talk to the flight crew. I mean, as an old airline guy, I still find some joy in getting up and kinda talking through how your day's been if you're a flight attendant. You know, they're so interested in taking care of you. No one really takes care of them. So I I actually fly Delta mostly, get up and go talk to some great flight crew people. Brian Jewell (33:02.284) Yeah. Well that's wonderful. I love that. So what's something in your carry-on that you wouldn't travel without? Jeff Ment (33:09.664) you know, that's changed over the years, but all this technology stuff that keeps, you know, a law firm running from in flight. I mean running a law firm from the you know, the 37,000 feet and a 767, which has also been around for like 30 years, but I still kind of get a kick out of flying on them. you gotta have all the right stuff. You gotta be able to connect, you gotta worry in advance about what's gonna happen if the Wi-Fi goes on the you know, brink on your flight. Being able to work, I I find the most productive work time I have is flying. Brian Jewell (33:41.336) Yeah. Brian Jewell (33:47.68) Wow. Yeah, 'cause there's no more distractions. Not n nothing else can really get in the way, right? Jeff Ment (33:51.727) Just right there can really have a great few hours of you know, peaceful work time and looking out the window and seeing the world. We're in a great industry. I mean, we really, if people think about it, the stuff we do for people and the opportunities we give them to expand their horizons literally and physically, it's really a great place to work. Brian Jewell (34:00.707) Yeah. Brian Jewell (34:15.202) Yeah, sure is. So let's say Delta says, Hey Jeff, we want to give you a free pass to anywhere we fly. Where are you going to let them take you? Jeff Ment (34:25.868) so they just they just started service to Malta. that was one of their customer and employee picks last season. I think I'd go to Malta. Nobody else is probably gonna have that as an answer, but it's a beautiful country. It's a small, manageable country, it's a walkable place. I would hop on a on a Delta flight and go to Malta. Brian Jewell (34:29.293) Mm. Brian Jewell (34:36.653) Yeah. Brian Jewell (34:48.002) Yeah, that sounds great. So last question. What is one thing you have seen or done on the road that you wish you could go back and experience again with somebody you love? Jeff Ment (34:58.052) so I don't do it much anymore, but in a foreign city that has like a pretty good transit system, s underground or buses, I would love to just go on a walk or a run, like a one-way walk or run without having to worry about how to get back to the hotel. So that you don't have to remember where you went. You can just go. straight out as far as you want to go, as long as you want to go, and then hop on something to get back to where you started. That's a great way to see a city because you're less focused on how do I get back? I don't want to get lost. And you can just kind of take it all in by yourself or with someone you love. Brian Jewell (35:30.434) Yeah. Brian Jewell (35:41.484) Yeah, that's wonderful. Jeff, it's been a pleasure having you. Thanks so much for joining us today. Jeff Ment (35:46.51) Thanks for having me. I loved it.